SPLITED topic: communism

NOT FROM ADMIN (shadow): this topic is split, it originally came from http://archive.erepublik.co.uk/suggestions-f34/crime-and-punishment-t3326.htm Since this is quite a interesting discussion that is reopened with almost every GE, I thought it was time we started a real discussion so I took the off-topic posts from the other topic and made a new one here.

special rules concerning this topic: This is quite a delicate matter and a serious discussion, plz try to respond mature and with respect for the opinions of the other ppl on this forum. Spam will be immediately deleted.

/regards
shadow
admin

William of Orange wrote:Socialism is what they had in the USSR (United Soviet Socialist Republics), Socialist Republic of Vietnam, People's Socialist Republic of Albania, Socialist Republic of Yugoslavia, &c. It didn't work any better than attempts at Marxist Communism.

No really it wasnt, socialism is what we've had in the UK for the past 60 years, what they had was basically a communist styled totalitarian state.

since when does the name of a nation denote what government type it actually is? Demorcratic Republic of Congo anyone?

Just thought I'd prod in my opinion on this. USSR was state capitalism. They called themselves socialist but that doesn't make it so.

Bob Boblo wrote:Just thought I'd prod in my opinion on this. USSR was state capitalism. They called themselves socialist but that doesn't make it so.

give me one RL example of a commie state that wasn't state capitalism.

shadow wrote:

Bob Boblo wrote:Just thought I'd prod in my opinion on this. USSR was state capitalism. They called themselves socialist but that doesn't make it so.

give me one RL example of a commie state that wasn't state capitalism.

every "communist" state has been state capitalist becuase no true communist state has ever been in existence. The Native Amercians have probably come the closest but you cant really call them a state.

Pughie wrote:

shadow wrote:

Bob Boblo wrote:Just thought I'd prod in my opinion on this. USSR was state capitalism. They called themselves socialist but that doesn't make it so.

give me one RL example of a commie state that wasn't state capitalism.

every "communist" state has been state capitalist becuase no true communist state has ever been in existence. The Native Amercians have probably come the closest but you cant really call them a state.

The native Americans where far from communists. They worshipped Gods, slaughtered minorities, and if you believe that everyone was equal in that society you still believe in fairy's. They let slaves, whom they hunted from rival tribes, build pyramids and temples that required even more labour then the Egyptian pyramids in order to please their Gods or their God-king/emperor. And the concept of a God (and them I'm not even talking about a god-king or a leader or priest that claims he's chosen by God) alone is already against the basic idea of communism where everyone is equal. The above applies for the native Americans like the Maya's or Aztec's, and tribes in the southern part of the USA.

if you are talking about the northern tribes, I presume you link them with communism since they had no money (a trading system) and since they where nomads. It is indeed true that nomad ppl have some resemblances with the communist theorie, but that is just a logical result from the fact that they have little possessions. They had chieftain, who was considered more valuable then others, they had a shaman who dictated them who to worship or which tribes man had to be sacrificed and they had a god. And when food was brought in, it always where the bravest and strongest warriors that had the first choice of picking meat. So I have to disagree with you, they where not communists.

And the fact that there never has been a decent example of a communist state in our 3000 year history, counts for me as enough proof that it is something that is not executable. The fact that it has been tried several times in those 3000 years history, with over 10 million deaths in Russia (in less then 50 years) alone (and god knows how many deaths globally), counts for me as enough proof that it is something monstrous. And all that together, counts for me as enough proof to safely say that communism is the greatest lie in the 3000 years history of humanity.

The following poem says it all to me.

Can this go back on topic please?

sry I just wanted to see if I still had it in me.

What, anti-communist viewpoints? Probably.

Then again, show me a governmental system that hasn't committed crimes against humanity.

A real, working one? Not on paper or on the internet? Um... government, too? Not just, say, a small village somewhere? Hmmm....

Nope. Can't. Ooh, can we get them to add "crimes against humanity" to V1? Atrocities would be a cool addition.

Mephit wrote:What, anti-communist viewpoints? Probably.

Then again, show me a governmental system that hasn't committed crimes against humanity.

I can't, but there is a difference between some crimes against humanity and a genocide of 10 million ppl.

Again your equating the Stalist and Moaist communism as real communism.

I didnt say the native americans where communist as they wouldnt have known or recognised the concept in that way. Communism in its undistorted form was born from looking back at our earliest ancestors. The fact that everyone got fed, everyone had there jobs that contributed to the tribe and the community, everything was pooled for the good of everyone in the tribe, they accepted gay people and also had laws binding parents to look after disabled children. Yes of course there were chieftans etc who got the best that will always happen in a society that has any commodities. The reason why communist ideas rose up and harked back to these practises is because the common man was living in shit in the 16th - 19th centurys. I think like you that communism is unworkable you cant surpress someones desire to better themselves.

and no i wasnt talking about the aztecs or mayans as they had kings etc so were not communist.

shadow wrote:I can't, but there is a difference between some crimes against humanity and a genocide of 10 million ppl.

Alternatively the difference is that most nations don't have the population to see such horrors come about on such a scale. Just to note: while the USSR are no paragons of virtue, there have been bigger genocides throughout history.

Pughie wrote:Again your equating the Stalist and Moaist communism as real communism.

I didnt say the native americans where communist as they wouldnt have known or recognised the concept in that way. Communism in its undistorted form was born from looking back at our earliest ancestors. The fact that everyone got fed, everyone had there jobs that contributed to the tribe and the community, everything was pooled for the good of everyone in the tribe, they accepted gay people and also had laws binding parents to look after disabled children. Yes of course there were chieftans etc who got the best that will always happen in a society that has any commodities.

ah, yes. but now you are going to what I was trying to point out. They had food, and that was it. They had no other luxury. life wasn't as complicated back then as it is now. They had only 2 concerns: food and survival. In those cases, with some effort you might have a chance of making it work, but as soon as you put luxury in it, the whole concept falls.

Mephit wrote:

shadow wrote:I can't, but there is a difference between some crimes against humanity and a genocide of 10 million ppl.

Alternatively the difference is that most nations don't have the population to see such horrors come about on such a scale. Just to note: while the USSR are no paragons of virtue, there have been bigger genocides throughout history.

True, but most of them where done by dictatorial states. And since every communist state until now where actually nothing more then dictatorial states...

And, you say there where bigger genocides? can you give me a example of a bigger genocide? Personally I don't know any, Pol Pot didn't came close, trukey-Armania "only" came to 1,5 million, Nazi's just reached the 6 mil, but high above all the others stand the Russian communists with their 9 to 10 million.

EDIT: and then we are talking about Stalin alone here. if you take in account the death caused by Mao, the Vietnamese, Kim Ill Sung, and many others, you can multiply that number a few times.

NOTE: since we where going off-topic, I've split the topic and reopened it here